Zoë : So could you tell me a little about yourself just for anybody who doesn't know. Just short cos I know you're sick of telling this story.
Vanunu: Very short. This is Vanunu in St George Cathedral in East Jerusalem, today is June 29 2005. Since my release on April 21 2004 I'm sitting here because I'm not allowed to leave the country, because they're not letting me to leave the country. It's the second year and also put under restrictions like not to speak to foreigners or to travel freely but I'm here with you to exercise my freedom of speech and demanding my right to leave the country. I spent seventeen and a half years in an Israeli prison for revealing their nuclear secrets in 1986 and I survived this very hard time life in prison and I came out and here I'm waiting to get out to be free again.
Z: Why do you think they keep re-imposing your restrictions?
V: the Israeli government with its power organisation claiming I still have some secrets that I didn't reveal nineteen years ago. But I think it's not true, I don't have any more secrets, I revealed all what I know and my view is they use all these restrictions just to harsh me and punish me and to frighten people not to speak about Israel.
Z: It's to frighten other people, yeah.
V: But in fact there is no secrets after so long time and huge revolution in all the worlds. But that's the Israeli way to keep me here more and more time.
Z: And do you think that they will break the restrictions some time in the future?
V: We don't know. This is the second year, they can renew them every year. The Israeli court improve them, approve them and they much worse. Now they charge me in court for giving interviews to the foreign media. So I'm in the court next month.
Z: For doing something like this.
V: Yes.
Z: Oh, I'm sorry.
V: Yes but they saw that all what I'm doing is just exercising my freedom of speech. I'm not revealing any more secrets, I don't have any secret. So maybe they should realise to end these restrictions.
Z: And do you have a lot of international support?
V: My case is very known all over the world, since 1986 they was campaigning and supporting me in many many years in many many place around the world. It start in England to Norway to United States to New Zealand to Japan. Everywhere people know my case very well and I hope I'll get out and meet many of those friends and to speak against nuclear weapons here in the Middle East and all over the world.
Z: And do you think any government will give you asylum?
V: Until now no any government give me asylum. I asked other government to give me asylum like in Ireland itself, Norway, Sweden, Canada, France but no-one answered me 'til now.
Z: Yeah I know the Irish government said you have to be there to get asylum but they know you can't leave.
V: The same every state but I cannot do it if I cannot leave the country.
Z: And what about in Norway?
V: The same, they say you will receive asylum when you come to this state. So that is the situation now. But I need a state to help me now. When I need them is now to get out from here. When I will be out I will have no problem to go in this state.
Z: Exactly, then you'll be ok. So how could people in other countries help you to get out of here?
V: By spreading my story, bringing it to the media, bringing it also to their political parties, parliament and demanding from them to intervene because Israeli government are not respecting my human rights.
Z: Exactly.
V: and to give me this very fundamentally right of freedom of speech, freedom of movement. I served enough time in prison.
Z: Absolutely.
V: So they should now let me go and start my new life in freedom. So by writing to your parliament members, your foreign minister, your prime minister demanding from them to be involved.
Z: Yeah, this is how people can help.
V: Yes.
Z: And do you think that international pressure effects the Israeli government?
V: If the international pressure will be strong with support of the government, yes that could help, why not? But the point is no any government 'til now did anything openly speaking on my behalf. It seems all of these states are in silence. So we need...
Z: people to make noise?
V: We need people to speak, to push the government to start taking this case.
Z: We're trying in Ireland to get you an honourary degree in Limerick University and then that would be a good way to put pressure on the government.
V: Yes I think it's a good idea. Any such recognition of award could only help.
Z: Exactly.
V: The same thing also in Norway in 2001 they gave me an honourary doctorate from Troms University.
Z: That's right and I thought they have a writer's centre they were going to give you asylum there.
V: Yes but the government of Norway say that I'm not allowed to receive asylum until I come.
Z: That's catch-22.
V: So the, a city in Norway said they would give me asylum as a writer and if they will give me, the government should follow what they decide and give me asylum.
Z: Exactly. Have you met any ordinary Israelis since you got out of prison? How do you think they would react to you?
V: Yes some, a very small few individuals come to see me here.
Z: And they support you?
V: They supported me. They are supporting my ideals but are a very small number of people, not ... the majority of the Jewish are afraid to speak about such weapons.
Z: And what is the Israeli nuclear capacity like now do you think?
V: When I published the information it was in 1986 and I said Israel had about 200 atomic bombs, hydrogen bomb and the ability to produce every year about 10 atomic bomb so until 1986 they have about 200. since then , maybe they improve the systems, can produce much more , so they can do whatever they want, but I think beyond 200 they don't need much.
Z: They don't need...
V: But they can produce them.
Z: And do you think they'll use them or they're just a deterrent?
V: I think they was going to use them but what I did is by revealing to the world and publishing these secrets is stop them from using them because all the world now watching, knowing about what they are doing and they will not let them use them.
Z: And what was your motivation in revealing those secrets?
V: One of these ones we talked about, not to let them use the atomic bombs, second is to stop this production in secret and to inform the world, and also to try also to help the peace. By let the world, Israel is very powerful , have many atomic bombs. They should not fear any peace, they should give peace a chance and give the Palestinians the right, end the conflict here. If the conflict is ended then also they don't need nuclear weapons.
Z: Exactly. And how do you see the future here now? I mean, walking around and looking at the wall and it looks very bleak from an outsider's point of view.
V: Yes, the Palestinian's situation now is very, very bad. There was some hope fifteen years ago, but the last four years, it's become very disaster. They are build the wall, they built much more settlements, a lot of checkpoints, demolishing houses, assassination leaders. So the situation become very, very bad. I don't know how someone can now speak about peace, how Abu Mazen can speak about peace. What kind of peace if the wall exist, checkpoints exist, occupation continue, refugee camp continue. So the situation is very bad, yet there is some hope because the Palestinian will continue to exist and wait for their rights. No matter what Israel will do, no matter how long time they will be delayed, they are waiting for their rights and the Israelis should realise sooner or later they should give them their rights.
Z: Yeah, they seem very strong, they won't give up, they will continue to resist.
V: Yes, Israeli government have no asset to these existing people their rights, they cannot do whatever they want. As I survived nineteen years in prison, the same the Palestinians, they will survive and wait. So I think the Israelis are cheating themselves by this wall, checkpoints, occupation, because they should know sooner or later the people will demand their right and the world are watching, all the world are following this situation.
Z: But do you think the world really knows what's happening here?
V: I think the real government, the real people behind the government know exactly. Maybe the media in the West are not giving accurate information, are not giving them all the image of what's going here. But those who are making decisions know exactly what's going here. And also now many young people coming from Europe, like you, like others, witnessing, reporting, sending back. People coming they stay with the refugee camps and occupied territories and they saw what Israel is doing. So these young people are the future. More will come and report to the world and will act against the Israelis and what they are doing.
Z: So you see some hope?
V: Absolutely, if there are human being, there are hope. As long as the people are keeping their humanity there is hope and the human race will survive until we receive the right.
Z: That's a very positive thought. And how did you stay sane all that time in prison? How did you keep your mind? I really admire that.
(V: Do you want to move out of the sun or are you ok?
Z: No, I'm ok.
V: I can move back a little if you like.
Z: Could you a little? I'll go home completely red. Ah, that's better.)
Z: So how did you keep your sanity in prison?
V: Well, it's not easy, it's not short. First you should know what happened, what they did because they sentenced me to eighteen years but no-one sentenced me to be in isolation or in cruelty and barbaric treatment. Secret Israeli government spies fighted me in prison, tried to destroy me, tried to harm my mind, my brain and my health. So they keep me in total isolation for eleven and a half years.
Z: It's incredible.
V: Very, very cruel, barbaric treatment..
Z: In a small cell was it?
V: In a small cell two by three metres for eleven and a half years, twenty-four hours.
Z: Oh my god.
V: And they use a lot of psychologic warfare, psychologic brainwash. They put light on for two years. They put video camera inside the cell following me for two years.
Z: Oh my god.
V: They used to disturb my sleep, they used to control everything that come to me, the food, books, anything, they record. They used to control the electricity, the water. They used everything to control, to try to fight me, to break me. They hoped they can break me in eighteen years, they hope they can bring me back to Judaism. They hope they can make me regret what I did. A lot of such things. When they saw that I'm very, very strong, they also used a lot of new modern fighting, my nutrition to destroy my health, to have some heart attack, heart disease, a lot of modern systems. But I survived because I was very, very firm and strongly behind my way and that's what helped me to survive.
Z: Because you knew you had done the right thing.
V: I knew I did the right thing and I knew I didn't receive justice and I knew someone fighted me and if they are fighting me it means they are afraid from what I did and so that make me much more firm and involved behind.
Z: It's incredible strength of mind that you have, I really can't believe it. And did you have contact from the outside world when you were in prison, did they control that?
V: Yes, from the beginning I was isolated but they let me to have mail contact. So I received letters from outside, from all over the world. I tried to answer them back. People heard about me, read about me and send their support. During the years it grow much more support but I felt very strong. I only used this contact to send people outside my encouragement, to encourage them to do for peace and for the abolition of nuclear weapons.
Z: And do you think that one of the reasons that they were so much against you was also because you had converted to Christianity?
V: Yes, that's another way they also, the Israelis who had accept and understand my act against nuclear weapons, they couldn't understand why I become Christian, why I decided to abandon the Jewish faith, the Jewish nation. And that was very, for them it was another betrayal, so that for them I was a double traitor. But that is my way and I chose my way and no-one can impose on me what I should believe. But they fight me very hard because of this Christianity and at the same times I use this Christianity to fight them back, to see I'm very, very strong and confident. And help me to survive to stand very firm during eighteen years.
Z: Do you think... Since you've come out of prison have you met many Palestinians who know what you did?
V: Yes, I was very surprised to see how many Palestinians know me, read about me and more than that many, many regarded me as their hero and very loved me. So anywhere I'm going in the street they greet me and say hello and invited me for a coffee in Israel. For that reason I stayed here in East Jerusalem and I'm continue to be here, I'll be here until I can leave.
Z: And do you spend time, do you speak Arabic day to day, do you?
V: I'm not speaking very well Arabic.
Z: Shwyir (a little)
V: Because I'm born in Morocco and I speak Moroccan Arabic. So now I'm exercising Palestinian Arabic and little bit by little bit knowing much more.
Z: And would you have any message for people in Ireland? My friends asked you this before, but people in Limerick who work for the Ireland Palestine Solidarity and also for your cause, what would you say to them?
V: Yes there are a very good message. First of all that I'm very happy and appreciate that the Irish people addressing my case. They used to be also a lot of support during the eighteen years in prison, they send me letters. And also I want to send them my encouragement for keeping Ireland free from nuclear energy, nuclear weapons, that is very, very good. I hope you in Ireland will spread this policy to other state specially to your very powerful neighbour, England. Make it clean, clean the sea from nuclear submarines, make the sea clean from the nuclear waste and make the world free from nuclear weapons because we the people don't want atomic bombs, we don't need them and we don't have enemies to justify atomic bombs. So that is about atomic bombs, nuclear energy in group everywhere.
I'm also very happy that you are with me here because I know Irish people are very courageous, they are not afraid to express their views, they're supporting the Palestinians. You in Ireland also experienced this colonialism, occupation, cheating by foreign state and that what the Palestinian exercising now and it would be very good if you could help them much more by political power in the European Parliament, the European government. So I'm inviting you to come to see the Palestinian reality in states, cities, refugee camps and come to see me here in Jerusalem.
Z: Thank-you, well, we'll invite you to ...
V: I'm really happy to come to celebrate with you in Limerick, Dublin, Belfast soon as...
Z: Cork, must mention Cork. Yeah, well you'd be very welcome in Limerick for a big pint of Guinness and to meet all your friends, you have a lot of friends there.
V: Yes, I have a lot of friends and a lot of drink to drink.
Z: Yes, ok thank-you so much, that was fantastic, thank-you. Go raibh mile maith agat.