Vanunu: Ok, Today is Saturday, February 19th. We are sitting in St. George’s, 9 o’clock in the morning, very sunny day, in East Jerusalem. You are now meeting Vanunu Mordechai.
María: Thank you, Vanunu.
Vanunu: The man who spent 17 and a half years in an Israeli prison for revealing Israel’s nuclear secrets to a newspaper in London, The Sunday Times. I was kidnapped by the Israeli Mossad spy from Italy, Rome, in September 30th 1986, sentenced for treason and higher espionage despite that I was not a spy, and put me in total isolation for 11 and a half years, and another 6 years in the same cell, and I was released in April 21st, 2004 last year. Now I’m here because Israel government says that I cannot leave the country for one year and I’m not allowed to speak to foreigners. I’m speaking to foreigners since my release, I give a lot of interviews, and for that reason they come on November 11, the day of Arafat’s death, they arrested me and invaded the Church with heavy police and arms, and took everything from myself, my computers and arrested me for 12 hours, questioning me about the foreigners. And then after that they release me, they give me everything except the computers, they continue to question me. They arrested me again on Christmas Eve when I want to go to Bethlehem to celebrate Christmas, but instead they took me to Tel Aviv police station, questioning me and they release me at 2 o’clock in the night. There’s also another point, that I’ve become a Christian, a Jewish who baptised to Christianity in Sydney, Australia in 1986, so that’s another reason why the Israeli Government and the Israeli people are not sympathy with me and fighting me, until now.
Seán: And, you just said there you were sentenced to prison for disclosing the nuclear secrets. Why did you do that?
Vanunu: Because I worked in Israel nuclear weapon factory Dimona reactor for 9 years, and I learned what they are doing. My job was to produce nuclear materials, plutonium, lithium, tritium, and I realised they are producing a lot of materials enough for about 10 atomic bombs every year. That means that Israel had more than 200 atomic bombs at that time, 1985. And I decided the world should know the truth, and to prevent a nuclear war in the Middle East, because the Israeli Government was ready to use them in the next war of the Arabs, and I wanted to prevent another Hiroshima-Nagasaki in the Middle East, and also in my mind I was hoping this revelation would help the Palestinians to receive their land, their rights, to impose on Israel to give the rights to the Palestinians, to the Arabs, because Israel is enough strong, have all the weapons. They don’t need all these territories, and they should give the equal rights to the Palestinians, and to have a real democracy here in the Middle East.
Seán: And they kidnapped you from Rome, how was that.
Vanunu: Yes, I was in London waiting for the Sunday Times waiting to publish the story, but then Israel was after me, trying to stop the publication, and they succeed by an American woman to go to, to travel me from London to Rome. In Rome they was waiting for me in one house and immediately when I entered the house they attacked me, drugged me and brought me by car to the beach and from the beach, with the Israel soldiers in a small boat, to here, to Israel, to prison.
Seán: And you were sentenced to… How many years in prison?
Vanunu: 18 years, and they put me in isolation and I was released after 17 and a half. It’s full sentence. In Israel every criminal is free after two thirds of his sentence. Other Jewish terrorists even not serving a few years. There was killers released after two, three years. In my case they give me exactly the treatment like a Palestinian terrorist and give me full sentence to the last day.
Seán: And what was your time in prison like. You said that you spent 11 and a half years in solitary confinement.
Vanunu: Yes, 11 and a half years I was in total isolation, not allowed to meet anyone, not any visitors, only my very close family, and not to meet any prisoners, not to have a phone connexion… So 11 and a half years I spent everyday alone, only 2 hours going outside to a small courtyard to walk also alone… And at the same time the Israel spy Savak Mossad conducted against me another psychologic warfare trying to break me, trying to make me crazy, to destroy my mind, my health, in hope that when I would get out of the prison I would be crazy, or death, or ill, that I would not speak again. So they used a very sophisticated psychology warfare everyday, like disturbing my sleep, make me angry by delaying my food, my meal… such things. A lot of psychologic warfare.
María: During 18 years like that.
Vanunu: Yes. But I used every day to learn, to understand what they are doing to me, how I will fight them, how I will survive, and that helped me… To follow them helped me to survive, to know what they are doing and to find the way to answer them. But that need to be a very strong man, to be alone and to fight, even in this total isolation, while they are fighting you, you are not giving up, you continue to fight, because I believe I’m a human being, I have free spirit, free mind, and I have the right to believe and do what I want, I will not let them change me or destroy me.
Seán: And when they released you they placed a lot of restrictions on you,
Vanunu: Yes
Seán: …like you can’t leave the country, you can’t talk to foreigners…
Vanunu: And I cannot travel freely in the street. I have to… to go anywhere I should report to the police every day where I’m sleeping, where I’m travelling… But I’ve decided I won’t have any connexion with them, I will not report. So I’m staying in East Jerusalem, I’m happy that I find this St. George’s here in East Jerusalem, because here you don’t have the Jewish Israelis, you have the foreigners, Christians, Palestinians… all them are very happy and sympathy. Otherwise in the other side you can find many anti… eh… fighting me. Like when I was released they come to near the prison about 200 settlers religious right wing, fighting against my release. Fighting those people who come to see me. About 200 people from all over the world come to see me celebrating my release. So we couldn’t meet because of the riots by the Jewish religious right wing that was fighting me.
Seán: And do you think your life is in danger?
Vanunu: My life is in danger if I will go among Israelis, some of them will attack me or shouting… And, yes, it’s not safe here, it’s not free, I’m not feeling free here. But here in East Jerusalem is very good, nice, and I feel safe, I’m walking around freely, no problem.
María: Do you go into the old quarter, into the old…
Vanunu: The Old City? Yes, I’ve been there many times, I enjoy to see the old church, Via Dolorosa, and to meet Palestinians, all of them recognising me, I am happy to go there.
María: How do you feel when you see all these soldiers walking around in the old part with the rifles, or these two guys that go around with their guns in their hands, with their pistols in their hands.
Vanunu: Yes. It makes you feel that you are under occupation, that I am too under the occupation, not only the Palestinians, all this territory. So that makes me feel that I’m not free, and they can arrest me anytime. Many times they question me, want my ID card, despite they know who I am they take my ID card and they keep me, holding me for 20, 30 minutes, checking. That is the Israel power, corruption; it’s used in the name of security to hassle the people here.
Seán: And what’s your view of the current occupation of the Palestinian lands, what Israel is doing.
Vanunu: Well, I believed in 18 years ago that after my revelation, and the end of the Cold War, Peace would come here, that Israel would give up the occupation to the Palestinians to celebrate freedom, then they start talking about Arafat, and Arafat come back… but it was illusion, nothing really happened. And now the situation is much more worse but the occupation are targeting the Palestinians much more, they build the wall, confiscated more land, put a lot of checkpoints that make the life of the people very hard, impossible. So the Israelis’ occupation become much more powerful, aggressive, and targeting the Palestinians to destroy their life, or to force them to emigrate, or not to have a real normal life, education, economy development, targeting anything, their life, to destroy this future Palestinian State.
María: What do you think of this argument, I mean, what do you think about this right that Israelis think that they have of having a land at the expense of Palestinians. I mean, you know the way they…
Seán: …based on the Biblical…
María: …yeah, based on the…
Seán: …based on the Bible, that this is the land of the Israelites.
Vanunu: Yes. The Israelis, the Jewish, coming back here in the name of the Bible, of the Old Bible, 2000 years, and claiming the land, and not only taking the land of the Palestinians but expelling them, or not letting them to come back. And what we can tell them: “If you, the Jewish, have the right to come back after 2000 years, why the Palestinians cannot come back after 50 years, who was born and raised here”. But we can only blame those who are behind this Jewish State. Those are Europe States. England, who give them the right to come, and France and Germany who give them the nuclear power. Without the nuclear power, without the nuclear weapons the Israelis not doing what they are doing now. Because they have the atomic bomb they feel they are powerful, they don’t care, they don’t hear anyone, they do what they want. But even if they want to take land, in the name of the Bible and everything, we can tell them “OK, build a democracy, make a real democracy, give equal rights to the people. What kind of State do you want?” The Israelis say they want a democracy, ok, why aren’t they recognising the Palestinians as equals and give them the right, why you don’t have a mixed society with Palestinians, Jewish, leaving together, in the cities, in school, in every part? Why not have Palestinians in the Government, in Supreme Court, in the Spy organisation? So what we have here is not only they come, they took the land, they also established a Jewish religion dictatorship, a Jewish Apartheid State. If you are Jewish you have all the right, if you are Muslim, or Arab, or Christian, like me, you don’t have the right. So that is a lot of criticism against this Jewish State, and it is very worse that Europe and the United States are not criticising and demanding from Israel to be a real democracy.
Seán: Going back to when you revealed the secrets, you were… an Israeli Jewish person?
Vanunu: Yeah.
Seán: Was it difficult for you? Did you have to fight an awful lot with yourself to reveal these secrets?
Vanunu: No, what happened… I’m a… I was born in Morocco, Marraquesh. I come here at the age of 10, and raised in a Jewish religion family. But I start criticising Judaism from the age of 16. Start rejecting it. And continue rejecting and questioning… So when I was working in Dimona I also started studying Philosophy in University. So I have a Philosophy degree and continue to question and criticise and be open, and become involved in Politics in the University, supporting Palestinians. So I develop my independent mind, understanding the situation, and I believe that Israel is wrong, or the situation here, and at the same [time] I also was criticising Israel nuclear weapons programme, and I decided that I should inform the world, inform the people around the world. So it wasn’t a big problem, but the only big problem for me was I knew that if I would do it may be I would pay a heavy price. The Mossad, Savak, the Government, will not be silent, they would act, they can kill me, they can do anything. So I was ready for anything they do. That is the only thing that was concern me.
Seán: And, as a Christian, do you feel Christians are, like the Palestinians, are they treated as second-class citizens in Israel?
Vanunu: Of course, if you are not a Jewish, the Israelis will not respect you, will not give you the same right. You are regarded as the enemy. But I decided that is my way, that is my believe, I cannot accept this Jewish faith, religion, and I knew that I would not be happy here, [not] receiving the equal rights. So my plan was not to live in Israel, to live abroad. The Palestinians have their honour, obligation, to protect their land, their history, to stay here. I can go, live anywhere, try to contribute to Peace from outside.
María: You know? Something that we face in our campaign, in Limerick, where we, you know, we take our stall…
Seán: In Ireland.
María: Yeah, in Ireland, where we take our stall into the street, and give out leaflets trying to raise awareness on the situation here in Palestine, and something that we face is that people is afraid of being anti-Israeli…
Seán: Anti-Semitic.
María: Yeah. Well. …Because they feel that being against the occupation is being anti-Semitic, you know, because of the Holocaust and that. What would you say to them?
Vanunu: Well, that is the Israelis blackmail. They’re controlling all the world by this, blaming them they are anti-Semitic. Anti-Semitic. Everything they did they say you are anti-Semitic. But what we can tell the Israelis and everyone can say is that we are demanding from these Israelis who are accusing us of anti-Semitic that they are themselves anti-Semitic by not respecting the Palestinians. We are demanding from the Israelis: just give equal rights to the Palestinians, just respect Palestinians. We are not demanding from you anything. Give equal rights, or end the occupation. Why these Palestinians should be under occupation for 35 years? It’s like in prison! People born and raised in occupation! Never exercised freedom! So this Holocaust propaganda is not so working as… Despite they write it in the media, yet the people now can say “how can you speak about the Holocaust if you the Jewish people are having 200 atomic bombs. Every atomic bomb is a Holocaust. You can kill, destroy cities, people, so you yourself become a genocide State” It was ready to use them. That is the reason why they are fighting me and trying to silence me, because I destroyed this Holocaust propaganda by revealing that these Jewish people are the real Holocaust production, and they forget their history, they was ready to cause Holocaust to other people, genocide. So in the name of the Holocaust they have no right to cause another Holocaust to the Palestinians.
Seán: Any more questions?
María: What would you say to young Israelis, recently we visited the Wailing Wall, and we were shocked we saw, puff!, loads…
Seán: At least a hundred.
María: …loads of very young Israeli soldiers, laughing, and posing for pictures, you know, for other Jews to take, and making pictures of each other, and we heard about this Israel Experience, [to Sean] you know more about it…
Seán: Yeah, we were surprised because we heard these young soldiers speaking English, Spanish, different languages, and then we asked them who they were, and basically they are young Jewish people from around the world who volunteer to come on the Israel Experience, and they get trained as soldiers and then go and volunteer to work in the territories and things like that. And again I think that’s something that was very striking for us because we hadn’t realised that, that’s something we don’t see in the West.
Vanunu: Well, that is very bad finding, because now you say that many Jewish in your country, Ireland, in every Europe… like Spain, they come here and they become like right wing here, militaristic, and patriotic, and they ignore the right of the Palestinian who are suffering under this Jewish power. So it’s very bad, and I think it’s also the problem of Europe! How they could raise such people in Europe, who are not open to criticise Israel, to support the Palestinians. But this is the Israelis; they are succeeding to recruit more people to be in their side. Future generations, future emigration, they will come, come here, emigrate…
María: Among the people that support you, are there any Israeli Jews?
Vanunu: Individuals who can come, but not much, because in Israel also you’re not finding any Israelis who stand and speak very clear and loud against nuclear weapons in Israel. Because the Israel propaganda, Israel standing is that they need nuclear weapons to prevent another Holocaust. So no any Jewish will say something against Israelis. Like in the Knesset parliament, you have 120, and then other 8 Palestinians, and the other 112 Jewish members of the Knesset, no one of them against nuclear weapons, all of them are supporting, from the right to the left. So there is no real anti-nuclear peace movement in Israel. No one is really doing a lot for my… supporting me.
Seán: Recently in Ireland, when we attended a conference on the Middle East, and we had an Irish politician, a member of the European Parliament, and he spoke about Palestinian terrorists, and people asked him does he consider the way Israel’s army and their security forces behave, and the things that they do, does he consider them to be terrorists, and he evaded the question and basically said he doesn’t think they’re terrorists. Do you think that Israel acts like a terrorist?
Vanunu: Israel acting like a terrorist? Of course. But because it is a State, they are cheating the world. Because they have Supreme Court they destroy the houses, and then you appeal to the Supreme Court, and the Supreme Court, “yes, yes, we have the right to destroy the house”, and then everyone thinks this is democracy, we have a court, we have judges, and everything went very well, but in fact it’s not nothing true. All what they are doing is contrary to the Human Rights, contrary to the International Laws, like all this occupation, destroying houses, arresting people, deporting people, or not letting people come back. But Israel is very smart, or very advanced Media State, Media propaganda control. They know how to brainwash the people, how to play the game, so they convince like these parliament members in Europe, or in the United States, to believe that Israel is a real democracy and everything they are doing is right. But like in my case, how can someone say you can’t speak to foreigners, you can speak to Jewish Israelis, anything, but not to foreigners. What kind of democracy is this? But you appeal to the Court, and they say, “here is the court, the judge decided you have no right to speak”. I say, “ok, we have also Supreme Court in German Nazism, is it ok what the German Nazism did by the Supreme Court? So what is this, what is, what does it mean Supreme Court? If Supreme Court cannot make good decisions then that Supreme Court is not a real democracy. So this Supreme Court approves the right of Israel to destroy any house, of any Palestinians, all to build the wall and take land, or to keep the occupation. So Israel is succeeding to cheat the world.
Seán: And what’s your plan for the future?
Vanunu: My future is I’m waiting to get out from Israel to celebrate freedom after 18 years. And here I cannot celebrate freedom. So if they will let me go, I can go live there in abroad I can feel I’m free. My future is to meet a lot of people, my friends around the world, I have many friends, and to settle in some city, somewhere, some university, to write, and read, and learn and teach. That’s my future.
Seán: And what do you think the future for this region is?
Vanunu: Now it looks very very bad. After they built the wall I don’t know what kind of peace they can build. If they really, Israel, want peace, they should first of all destroy the wall. That is the first sign. Otherwise, with the wall there is no real peace. Next after the wall to end the occupation. So the situation is very bad, but yet Israel is dependent and controlled by Europe and the United States. If the United States and Europe would do something, the Israelis would follow them. The solution is in the hands of Europe and the United States.
María: What would you like to say to the people that will come to our talk on Wednesday, in Limerick, the Irish people?
Vanunu: What I’d like to say to them is that you should be very proud and happy to speak on behalf of Human Rights, on behalf of the Palestinian people who are under occupation. Don’t buy, don’t accept the Israel propaganda that they blame the Palestinians are terrorists. Even if there are some few individuals terrorists who are killing themselves, yet it is not justifying Israelis to cause a lot of suffering to the people here for many, many years, 35 years under Israel’s soldiers, army, every day, or other Palestinians living a very poor life in refugee camps, without any future. And also don’t forget to remind the Jewish of Israel that they are the real Holocaust genocide people who have atomic bomb. That if Israel want to remind the world the Holocaust, so these Jewish people should first of all prove it by destroying their own atomic bombs and opening Dimona for inspection. You can speak very clear and loud, without any fear because the blame is Israel, not you not anyone else. And the Israeli Jewish people are under the obligation to build and prove they have a democracy. This Jewish State is not a real democracy. That is a very important point to remind them. A real democracy should respect and accept any Human being, without colour or religion, and what we have now here is, if you are Jewish you have all the right, if you are a Jewish you can come back to Palestine after 2000 years, but if you are Palestinian you are not allowed to come back after 50 years. So this is the point you should say very clear and loud anywhere without fear. Thank you. I will be happy to come to see you in Limerick when I’ll be free.
María: Oh, We’ll be delighted, we’ll be delighted.
Seán: We’ll be happy to welcome you.
María: It will be a great honour for us. Go raibh maith agat.
Seán: Go raibh maith agat. Thank you.
Vanunu: What is it?
Seán: It means ‘Thank you’ in Irish.
Vanunu: How do you say?
Seán: ‘Go raibh maith agat’
Vanunu: ‘Go raibh maith agat’?
Seán: Yes.
Vanunu: Ok.